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Question:
Hello, I am hoping to receive immediate information regarding this silk Qum Rug below. Is the color changed? What is the kpsi, what might be a possible value? It is expensive and I want to see if it is worth it or not?
I ask for as quick a response as possible. $100/ft.
-anonymous
Response:
(Full response less than 2 hours from inquiry)
Before starting, I want to mention if the seller would like to have a verification for the rug, we can do so with better images to address the rug more properly. The seller is asking a dollar amount which is not out of the question, but certainly necessary photographs to justify this price are not rendered.
The best thing is to have as
much insight from many people in the field. Ordinarily,
I would run information by several experts before advising
on a piece, and certainly not advise on anything with photographs lower
than 600x450 pix. These photographs really
say very little, making this a difficult assessment to say the least: certainly not the best way to evaluate a rug. With that being said, and given the short notice, do not quote me on
this content here, and certainly do
not hold $ value provided against us for a purchase you may or may not make.
Hopefully after
reading this you have some general insight into making a more informed
purchasing decision. Be less concerned about knot count and $ amount,
and more concerned about the actual rug at hand. With this being said,
I hope you will be seeing this rug
in person to determine the following. It has been some time since
I have been actively involved with Qum rugs specifically but I will tell you what I can.
This at one point
was an ebay rug. The little camera watermark indicates this. I looked
it up and could not find it in completed listings which implies one of
two things: [If the rug is actually in the seller's posession] Either it did not sell on ebay, or the rug has sold on ebay
and the new owner may try to flip it for profit or was not satisfied with what they received. Often when the images used have eBay watermarks, this implies the latter.
You bring up a valid concern about the color. This may be a change in the weave or more/less weft exposed. But the tone seems slightly pink. This does not look like color run, but that's not to say other areas of the rug don't have it. If a rug has color run, you'll be able to tell the best by looking
at the rug from the dark side. You'll see it more pronounced from this
direction. Generally speaking, large areas that look like they're pink
should probably be ivory: especially in Qum rugs, and especially if the
coloring is blotchy. Generally the reds are one of the first to run, although others doo to (not always dark colors to lighter either). Light shades of rose/pink in a medallion or field are
not exactly common to find in Qum rugs. They're only really used sparingly for top colors
and outlines. If you see large open areas with a tint of pink/rose, be
wary. This will affect value for almost any rug, especially a Qum as
this implies over-saturation of dyes, or low grade dyes used. Not
exactly acceptable, especially for this genre of rug. Going by the photographs, which are not exactly the best indicator, the color change where we see the reverse corner of the rug appears to be a straight line. This implies a change in dye lots.
Specifically for qum silk rugs: If
the rug has a change in dye lots toward one side on the border (which
it appears as though it may from the corner being folded over with the
back exposed) this will affect value. If it's in the field, this will
be more detrimental to value. Generally, Qum rugs should be pretty
close to perfect, so an imperfect one is considered less desirable.
Whether or not this actually is a true Persian Qum or Chinese knock off
will affect appeal, but not necessarily value (if it's not a silk blend
with art silk or all art silk). There are a lot of excellent Chinese
rugs out there, however There
are also stigmas attached to some
Chinese rugs due to quicker, less proper weaving techniques and
implimentation of cheaper materials used.
Chinese rug weavers have been known to use faster techniques to make a
completed piece, which in turn has made them less "reliable" and/or
durable, therefore rendering them somewhat less appealing to the
market. Not saying this is the case with this rug, but I have no
evidence to speak different. Often this problem of poor weaving is
confined to lower KPSI rugs, not always: Given the ruler on the
back, this probably is okay *IF* it is Chinese. Also be sure to use
a burn test. It is worth noting that it would be counter-productive to weave such a fine rug with low grade or artificial fibers, but you never know.
It's been some time since I have personally been involved in the
wholesale market for Qum rugs. Many years ago, I believe it was more expensive to
attain a Chinese Qum design than Iranian: now I believe this has changed.
Determining Chinese vs. Persian is sometimes almost indistinguishable
even with very good photographs or even being there in person to see
the rug. However, there are some indicators you may check to *possibly* tell the difference.
This may be a Chinese or Persian rug. I honestly have no idea, but kashmir is ruled out almost certainly. The fact is, Chinese is a possiblity even though my gut says Persian. I say this
because in the image showing the entire piece, the lower right hand
corner appears to have
hard-curled tension. To really assess what this means, as it could imply origin, we would have to see better photographs. Often, this would be
indicative of a Chinese weave *if the handle of the rug is stiffer*. If the rug is
floppy with corner tension, it lends the clue to being of Persian/Iranian origin. A excellent weaving example of a Qum should
fold and distort with a malleable handle into a compact piece without stretching in
the corners or showing signs of stress.
The above inspection suggestions are not everything for inspecting a rug, and not always the best indicator for such pieces. However, at the very least, you should be able to tell the difference between a excellent weave from a very good weave with this (Just talking about structure here, not about design, colors used, quality, etc.). These rugs are really best seen in person. If high resolution photographs were provided, and even video to see how the rug reacts to it's own weight and how it drapes, this would help too. But what seller is going to provide a video?
As I said before, be less concerned about the Knot count and more about the rug at hand. KPSI means very little with many rugs.
You
can generate a "fair market assumption" in context of a "commodity
price" using knot density or KPSI in some cases. Really, KPSI means nothing if material input is shoddy, or the weave is poorly executed, etc. In the instance of a Qum, you
really want to feel the structure and see the rug in person. Bad
colors and poor design can kill the appeal, and therefore the value.
The original inquiry did ask about KPSI: This piece appears to be in the vicinity of 23 vertical,
22 horizontal. The knots should be more or less the same making final KPSI
in the area of 500-530 or so. KPSI really should be taken from 3 areas of a
rug.
Our best suggestion:
Get better photographs! We can help out a lot more. You see with the above how much guess work there is, and I'm somewhat familiar with these pieces! Bottom line, use good judgment. For a
perfect piece, private party (Chinese or Persian) figure $50-85+ per
square ft. as a loose assignment to value. Some rugs which are very nice quality, design, colors would go for more. Keep in mind, the value given is for a perfect condition, TRUE
SILK, decent design execution. This is from my experience. If the rug has color run or a serious
change in the field color, subtract a lot from the previous numbers.
Again, trust instinct, you'll know if you have a good piece in front of
you.
If you cannot see this rug in person, be sure to consider PayPal or
some other safe service to remit payment and have a return policy.
-David, Co-Founder RugRag.com
Follow up from us with additional Photographs provide by inquirer of low resolution:
My gut tells me this is a real Qum. I have not run it by anyone else,
just haven't had the time and the seller just doesn't have good enough
pics. No offense, because it's not your representation, but for me to
show this to another pro for assessment would get a bad sneer.
The fact is this: it's in the seller's best interest to provide
excellent photographs. Perhaps the date is off on the camera, but
there's so much that can happen to a rug between 2/12/07 and 12/17/08
let alone the fact that we can see very little as to what this rug is.
These are 2megapix or so, the best images we get for assessment are in
the 6mp+ range.
Personal story: I used to buy on eBay. Part of why we started the
site.... To make a long story short: I bought a 2x3 silk qum for
$45/ft from a private seller about 4 years ago. Slightly higher knot
count than this, slightly different design, but more traditional colors
without so much pink. It was purchased from
photographs just like the ones this seller is offering. I ended up not
satisfied with the rug. Even though it passed the burn test. I turned around and sold it no reserve and got $65 per foot 7
weeks later with very good detail photographs that collectors want to see.
The point of explaining this is the
following, the seller is asking high $, but he's not showing pics to
command this money. It's like advertising a diamond with photographs
of it from 3 feet away. They say nothing, and it's only in their best
interest to show better images! The market for these has not changed
much from what I researched this morning. Some sellers have been
misadvertising Kashmir silks as Qums, and certainly overstating KPSI
(sometimes spelling it KPNI) This I believe to be real, but there's
the possibility of it being Chinese or having issues unseen from these low resolution fuzzy images from a distance. Better info can be determined from better photos.
What I'm getting at here is this certainly is a really nice
looking rug, but there's not much else I can say. It's possible this
rug is worth every bit of the private party (some excellent
examples really should be this high a price) as the seller is asking:
nicer rugs in this quality range really can go for that much. The fact
is, has this seller gone to the extent they should to represent and/or
justify this as being a $2400 rug? Not from what I'm seeing.
The best suggestion I have for you is to consider joining our rug forum. http://forum.rugrag.com
I'm really happy you're interested in rugs, and support this because
you know I am a rug man. Do one of two things, Either write this off
as a high risk investment for someone else to get involved in
OR ask the seller for the following
6mega pix or better IN FOCUS
1:
Specific photographs of selevedge wraps (edge of the carpet) showing
some pile (may have to use flower button on camera for focus),
2: a photograph showing fringe tips fringe knots and fringe going into the rug,
3: area where color change is on the back of the rug,
4: same area as number 3 but on the front,
5: show how the rug drapes
Again, it could be worth it, but without justifiable
indicators, why take the chance? The above photographs will be good
samplings of what I need to see. It's not going to promise a safe
purchase, but provide info to make a better purchasing decision. I want to see this color change on the reverse side and how/if it translates to the front.
-David, Co-Founder RugRag.com
Follow Up question:
I could negotiate the price to 1400$. I am a bit concern about the possible tention in the lower right corner of the rug. I asked the seller about more pics, but all the pics he send me are worthless. Please let me know what you think! Seller told me several times that there is no change in color and what shows in th pictures is really shadow or bad mega pix or somthing! I really did not have a chance to ask him about the tention, but do you think that tention is really from the rug, or lifting the carpet to show
the back of it, might have caused this tention in the picture?
-anonymous
Follow Up Answer:
Where is the rug in relation to you, how much is the shipping, is the
seller willing to offer a return policy, can he furnish a bill of
original sale, and WHY can he not produce better photographs? Why are
they selling?
I want to help you out the best I can. In all honesty, this whole
thing is not making much sense. $1400 SOUNDS better, but what are
these reassurances of the rug not having issues if you cannot
substantiate this information with requested images backed by specific
inquiry? How do you know the rug is in the possession of this seller?
The photographs are old dates, and clearly are of poor quality.
We've helped out MANY people in the past. For you, I have gone
above and beyond what my associates have advised and even provided
information 99% of those with experience would ever expound upon.
For
this piece, I am willing to help, but I cannot keep repeating myself
regarding the need for additional pictures. We're not talking about a
name brand item which can be referenced with "price guide" value.
We're talking about hand made objects which have multiple
characteristics with many facets on how to gauge quality: those of
which go beyond just knot count alone. We're talking about condition,
country of origin, change in dye lots, handle, etc...
Like I have said several times, this rug could very well be worth
the $ this seller is asking, but nothing has been provided to assure
this rug is in their ownership, nor have photographs been offered to
visually prove the rug description matches the claim by this seller.
In the future please consider use of our Forum.
This is the best way to receive input going forward. This way the
public may benefit from the information provided and you may receive
input from multiple sources.
As for this piece: if the rug is in brand new condition, with no
problems, option for return, has no hard change in dye lots, no other
conditional issues, odor, repairs, low areas, etc. you're probably in
good territory with $1400. But consider the suggestions above. I am
unsure of what you have said to this seller, but I find it a little
unusual they would immediately reduce the price 40% in as little as one
day.
I can give no further advise until additional photographs are
provided. It would be unprofessional for me to make assumptions or
surmise without proper visual indicators to make a qualified assessment.
Thanks for running your questions by me, please consider use of our forum in the future. http://forum.rugrag.com
-David, Co-Founder RugRag.com
We look forward to talking with anyone who may have questions on or
about oriental rugs. We are an Independent Reviewer, and will give you
our opinion for any rug, new or old. Should you have any questions you
would like to submit for a blog entry response, please do so, and be
sure to include photographs of your rug. For more information, please
take a look at the bottom of this page, or feel free to Contact Us at Info@RugRag.com
See More From "The InBox"
For all those interested in submitting a question to the Rug Rag
Editors: We'd be more than happy to help, please send some photographs
of the
reverse side of the rug very close up with a quarter placed on the
knots, plus a picture of the fringe, the whole face of the rug and
detail shot of the pile. If the rug is worn, please include
photographs of worn areas. For rugs of any age, please be sure to
check for dry areas, moth damage, odor, and whether or not the rug is
straight/has right angles where called for. If you
have any questions about our assessment request feel free to send us an
email. Otherwise, we are looking for
something similar to these images posted here.
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